Monday, July 02, 2007

With Gods Like These, Who Needs Devils?

Living Waters is always good for a laugh. Recently, I was cruising through one of their web pages entitled "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition," and I came across some interesting things.

First off, it should be noted that these people need to proofread their materials a bit more carefully:

The mind is the data-processing control panel for the eyes and the ears. It is the center of your appetites. All sin begins in the "heart" (Proverbs 4:23, Matthew 15:19). We think before we sin. This happens because we don't think before we sin.

Emphasis mine.

Notice that they say that we think before we sin, but then they say that the reason that we think before we sin is because we don't think before we sin. Huh? I'm sure that my problem with reading comprehension has to do with my hardened atheist heart.

Seriously though, some proofreading would help these guys out.

But let's get to the meat. Here is the real reason that I am making this blogpost:

Did you know that God kills people? He killed a man because he didn't like what he did sexually (Genesis 38:10). He killed a husband and wife because they told just one lie (Acts 5:1-11). Knowledge of God's goodness -- His righteous judgments against evil, should put the fear of God in us, and help us not to indulge in sin.

If we know that the eye of the Lord is in every place beholding the evil and the good, and that He will bring every work to judgment, we will live accordingly. Such weighty thoughts are valuable, for "by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil" (Proverbs 16:6). Jesus said,

"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:4-5).

Remind me again which one is Satan and which one is Yahweh? I'm having serious trouble telling them apart!

I have got to hand it to Living Waters, for they make no bones about revealing the master/slave framework of Christianity. Whether they are actually proud of such a lopsided system, or merely oblivious to what they are admitting, I cannot tell for sure. But in either case, I'm glad they are doing it.

To be a bit more specific, Living Waters is stating the obvious: that God has different standards of conduct for Himself than He has set for us humans. It’s bad when humans kill, but good when God kills.

What this means is that God's universe has no moral laws per se. God has created no moral principles, because a principle or law is a thing that is true in all places and at all times. Gravity, for example, is a law. It applies at all times in all places. Even spaceships and airplanes must account for gravity.

The same should go for a moral rule: if a law says, "don't murder," then it must be true everywhere and all the time (never mind the circularity of "murder" being nothing more than an "unlawful killing"). If it isn't true everywhere and all the time, then it isn't a law.

God need not obey any rules that he sets on the shoulders of man. He plays with a different set of rules. This means that God does not reveal laws, but merely invents dictates.

This is underscored by Living Waters' quoting of Luke 12:4-5, which essentially says "Be afraid of massa! He will whip the skin off your bones if you even look at him funny!"

Universal moral principles do not require a warning of consequences or an appeal to fear in order to be justified. Only arbitrary dictates need justification in such dreadful ways. Universal moral principles are justified without even bringing consequences into the equation. A consequence comes after the fact, but a universal principle needs justification before the action is committed, and before the consequences can be dished out or even determined. That is why the Bible appeals only to consequences when attempting to justify God's rules; it’s the only tool at its disposal. Too bad the writers of the Bible we too stupid to realize that this would expose God's rules for their arbitrary and amoral nature.

I've said it repeatedly: Morality cannot be based on God's rules. And now I have shown that Living Waters, a fairly popular evangelism website, has (accidentally?) conceded this very fact.


Aaron Kinney said...

Hi Frank,

Yes my crappy site is still up. Im averaging around 200 unique hits a day, which aint bad for an anti-afterlife blog.

It'll be a fun day when you end up in hell.

This reveals soooo, soooo much about the immorality of Christian theism.

How many times have I stated it, yet how many times have Christians denied that Hell has anything to do with their obedience to God and their belief in the Bible?

Its a fear tactic. Its psychological terrorism. And Frank Walton totally admitted it just now, probably on accident.

And he even took pleasure in admitting it! He wielded it like a weapon. He gloated about it, and it made him feel good even to think that Im gonna burn while he sits on fluffy clouds.

Aaron Kinney said...

Now that I think about it, Im not too sure that the "Frank Walton" who posted here is realy him. I have sent the real Frank Walton an email to check with him whether this profile is an imposter...

Anonymous said...

This is my first visit here. I like what I see. It's always comforting finding a like minded person in a world dominated by delusional and irrational thinkers. Keep up the good work...

wade419 said...

man, Aaron - you're right, it sucks that God has to be a good parent and a bad parent all rolled into one. ;P

@ the alleged "Frank Walton": grow up. you sound like a 10 year old playing halo.

Aaron Kinney said...


Im glad you like my blog, Haunted! Yours aint so bad either :)


Point taken. But I believe, and I hope you agree, that a parent shouldnt automatically receive respect and obedience from its child; it has to be earned. And only BAD parents give eternal punishment for temporal crimes. This God, this cosmic parent, sets the wrong rules for its children, and He does not give corrective instruction like a time out or being grounded. He waits until His child is DONE with this life before he reveals the corrective action, which is hell, and which is also eternal so it isnt very corrective anymore. Its the death penalty, not a fine and a few years sentence with probation afterwards.

A good parent wants their child to blossom and learn independence. A good parent wants their child to acheive its own victories for itself, and they even want their child to EXCEED their own life accomplishments.

God wants none of those things. He wants enslaved obedience to Him for the sake of His parenthood, forever. You can never create your own family, but must remain a child in His. You can never hope to grow into your own equal adulthood when it comes to God. You can never learn from the cosmic parent and improve and advance what he acheived. There is no progress or betterment with the God parent, only eternal submission and service.

I am not yet a parent, but I hope to be some day. And I imagine that my goal for my children would be for them to come into their own, and determine their own destiny, and have better lives than I did, and go further than I did. I would put their needs and interests above mine or anyone elses. I would give my life to save theirs. I would be the one in their corner, not the one on their altar. That would make me feel like a good parent.

Do you have children, Wade419? How would you feel given the choice of your children's eternal subservience to you, or your children becoming admirable people in their own right, and able to stand in their own light?

Frank Walton said...

I was just kidding about the hell thing, and your site is actually great. This post about the living waters is right on. Plus I don't think Ananias and Saphira death in the new testament is brought up enough.

Aaron Kinney said...


Im glad you like my site. Lots of people like my site. I like my site too, obviously.

But flattery wont get me to accept your fake-ass tactics. Impersonating known Christian activists is not cool, as neither would be impersonating known atheist activists.

There is already one Frank Walton in the world, and thats enough thank you very much.

Why dont you give up your bullshit faking and just represent your real self; who you really are? Why impersonate?

You will never gain my acceptance or respect through complimenting my blog. You will only gain my acceptance or respect through being real. This is a realm of ideological battles, and atheists like myself put a high value on TRUTH.

So if you come in here fucking up the TRUTH with your impersonating crap, Im going to resist you and expose you every chance I get. Sorry bud, but thats the way it is.

There is enough make-believe in this world already, and Im trying to reduce the amount of lies in society. You are getting in the way of my goals.

Brian V. Mansur said...

Just a general comment after browsing your post Arron, "With Gods Like These, Who Needs Devils?" I'm convinced that you need to step back and read things in context.

The more I study apologetics, the more I am convinced that Atheists mislabel most of the supposed Scriptural or Doctrinal contradictions because of contextual ignorance.

BTW, "Frank Walton" is SO out of line, regardless of whoever he is or whatever he believes, that it is not funny.

God Bless,
Brian V. Mansur

Aaron Kinney said...

Ecualegacy / Brian,

Just a general comment after browsing your post Arron, "With Gods Like These, Who Needs Devils?" I'm convinced that you need to step back and read things in context.

The more I study apologetics, the more I am convinced that Atheists mislabel most of the supposed Scriptural or Doctrinal contradictions because of contextual ignorance.

Point taken, and as a former Christian myself, I can definitely agree with you that many atheists mislabel or oversimplify Scripture due to contextual ignorance.

Even as a Christian, I was more familiar with Scripture than the average believer, but admittedly there were times, both as a Christian and as an atheist, when I misinterpreted or mischaracterized Biblical messages.

So getting to my blog post title, "With Gods Like These, Who Needs Devils?" I want to let you know that most of the titles of my blog posts, including this one, are deliberately written as to provoke controversy and/or a strong reaction from the reader, mostly to promote interest and gather readers to my blog.

Scripturally, I know that my blog title wasnt exactly accurate and perhaps miscontrued Scripture. In addition, this blog post was written from the perspective of an already avowed atheist; an external critique. When giving an external critique, it is not always necessary for one to assume the presuppositions of the ideology they are critiquing. Ive written many blog posts, and some of them are internal critiques, some are external, and some incorporate both.

This particular blog post assumes that theism is incorrect, and gives an argument from effect, where God and Satan (or heaven and hell) are externally critiqued for their respective effects, from an atheist perspective. In this context, I think my blog title is more applicable and appropriate.

One fintal thing Brian, I have a question for you: in the Bible, who kills more humans? God, or Satan? ;)

Reason's Whore said...

Christians constantly complain that atheists are taking the quotations out of context. But I don't see it at all. I can read chapter after chapter of the bible and still see this god character as an evil asshole. To me, that is the context of the bible: an immoral dictator created mankind and then repeatedly fucks them over because of their god-given nature.

What am I missing?

Aaron Kinney said...


You see, when God kills people and causes destruction, its GOOD and MORAL by definition, because he makes the rules.

But if anyone else kills or destroys, then its EVIL because God didnt do it himself ;)

So in reality, Christians support a relative morality even though they constantly bitch that only through Christianity can one have a solid moral foundation.

Oh the backwardness of religion is soooooo much fun!!! :D