Thursday, July 20, 2006

Magic Mushrooms: A Path to God?

In a recent double-blind government study, the chemical psilocybin, which causes the "trip" effect of Magic Mushrooms, was found to cause profound mystical or spiritual experiences for it's users:

What's more, most of the 36 adult participants -- none of whom had taken psilocybin before -- counted their experience while under the influence of the drug as "among the most meaningful and spiritually significant experiences of their lives," Griffiths said. Most said they became better, kinder, happier people in the weeks after the psilocybin session -- a fact corroborated by family and friends.


I don't doubt these findings at all. I've written before about psychedelics and finding God. The article elaborates further:

So, is this "God in a pill"? Griffiths said answering questions of religion or spirituality far exceeds the scope of studies like these.

"We know that there were brain changes that corresponded to a primary mystical experience," he said. "But that finding -- as precise as it may get -- will in no way inform us about the metaphysical question of the existence of a higher power."

He likened scientific attempts to seek God in the human brain to experiments where scientists watch the neurological activity of people eating ice cream.

"You could define exactly what brain areas lit up and how they interplay, but that shouldn't be used as an argument that chocolate ice cream does or doesn't exist," Griffiths said.


True, this study doesn't have much to do with whether or not God exists. However, this study does show that a good dose of hallucinogens will sure help you think you found God! And there's something that's just unsettling about the idea of hallucinogens convincing someone that they have a mystical connection to a psychic super space fairy.

You know, besides finding God, there's something else that Magic Mushrooms make you do: piss yourself. Yes, I'm serious. Have you ever seen a person tripping on an eighth of mushrooms? Sometimes, they piss their pants. There's something about the drug that makes your bladder want to let it all go.

In a nutshell, the same recreational tool that makes you piss yourself and see things that aren't there is the same tool that helps you find your spiritual connection to God.

This whole God/afterlife thing seems to be a two-way street. As I've shown so many times before on this blog, belief in God and the afterlife makes you insane. And now we have evidence that making yourself temporarily insane (through hallucinogens) makes you find God and/or the afterlife.

Belief in God and the afterlife is a way to escape reality, just like taking hallucinogens.

68 comments:

BlackSun said...

I think hallucinogens can be useful--but you need to know what you're doing.

It's easy to mistake visions for reality--and this doesn't even take being on drugs. Hallucinogens can also give you a window into your own psyche you can't get any other way. And they can be good for brainstorming. As Gary Larson of Far Side fame once asked rhetorically: "Can drugs be considered art supplies?"

But for supernaturalists and new-agers, drugs are like handing a quart of gasoline to some kids who are playing with matches.

olly said...

I tend to agree, and as someone who has used mushrooms recreationally, I think that what you 'see' when you are using hallucinogens is largely dependent upon the worldview you take into it. If you are predisposed towards believing in mysticism, then you will probably have a trip related to that.

We are defined by our experiences... we carry those experiences with us everywhere we go, and in everything we do... so when you take something like psylocibin, you are bound to have a trip that is in some way related to whatever your experiences are.

-olly

Aaron Kinney said...

Dont get me wrong guys. I never said taking drugs was bad. And I'm no teetotaler. Im trying to trash the perceived profoundness and validity of spiritual and mystical experiences here.

Comparing drug-induced experiences with religious experiences is, I think, valid way to argue that spiritual revelations come from inside the mind, not from an outside cosmic force.

BlackSun said...

Definitely, Aaron. Your point is well taken.

vjack said...

Even as an atheist, I cannot describe experiences with mushrooms and LSD as anything but intensely spiritual and life-changing. What this tells me is that spiritual experience is located in the brain and the process of neural transmission and not in any sort of supernatural realm.

Aaron Kinney said...

Amen Vjack!

Moltisanti said...

I asked u to do a post on this about a month and a half ago and got 0 response, THANK U! My friend is a FIRM believer in this and I get into fights with him about it every time we see eachother.

Moltisanti said...

if possible, can u do more research on this, my friend takes it as a FACT that mushrooms r a path to god and the only way to find true "enlightenment"

he believes that Jesus was tripping on them everyday

he believes that Jesus's "miracles" were because he gave other people mushrooms (blind can see, 1 fish into many etc)

he has tripped like 50 times and loves it every single time and i keep telling him he THINKS he is enlightened, but hes really just tripping of mushrooms!

Aaron Kinney said...

Moltisanti,

Sorry I dont recall your request. Well Im glad to have finally fulfilled it anyway.

In fact, I just posted a new blog post a few moments ago clarifying my stance on drug use, since so many of my readers seemed to have gotten the impression that I am against drugs.

Well, Im not. But I AM against God and the afterlife, and I am especially against bulshitting oneself into thinking that drug use = finding God.

You should have your friend come talk to me. I have personal experience with mushrooms and can surely relate to his experiences, yet explain to him why hes wrong about the Jesus Mushroom thing.

Hellbound Alleee said...

OMG, Aaron, don't you know that hallucinogens make you ingest knowledge without having to work?

Yeah, you know, I understand that drugs can help you change your thinking, or see things differently, but drugs alone cannot make a bullshitter into a non-bullshitter. In fact, they can make a little bullshitter into a huge bullshitter. Nothing personally against drugs per-se. They're a fact, and it's not their fault that bullshitters take them and think they've become better for it.

Aaron Kinney said...

Hellbound Alleee, as usual, speaks much wisdom :)

Paul Manata said...

I've used tons of acid and shrooms, TONS.

I NEVER had a "religious" or "spiritual" experience. Actually, I usually felt like an animal. One time I fried up in the moutnains here in S.D. My friend and I crawled on the ground like animals and grunted at each other.

When we got back I took my high school girlfriend out to the movies. I saw a guy staring at her. I dropped her off in her seat and went back out in to the lobby. I crouched real low and ran up to him, clawed his face and body and said in a weird voice, "I'm an aniaml. If you look at her again I'll eat you like meat."

Anyway, I NEVER had any spiritual experience. I always had earthly ones. So, I guess I should conclude that atheism is just the way one's brain farts. Indeed, if theism is due to the function of the brain then so is atheism. So, the reason you're an atheist is due to chemical reactions, not the force of inferences. But I digress, we'd be getting into the argument from mind against atheism.

ltart said...

I know all about religious hallucinations from growing up in the holly roller Pentecostal church. my mother was high on God all the time as were her cohorts & they fell on the floor & shook & babbled in 'tongues' & exorcised demons & had visions. I never could get her to compare that to my chemically induced spiritually.

Aaron Kinney said...

Well Paul, I never had spiritual or Godly experiences while on hallucinogens either. But I never did "tons" of hallucinogens, just some. And I dont do them anymore. It looks like both you and I knew better than to confuse our trips with something spiritual or Godly. Strange that most people dont.

And strange also that you would take your personal experiences and attempt to totally disregard and invalidate a respected and accepted double-blind government sponsored study just to justify your delusional belief in a cosmic big brother.

Anonymous said...

iiiiiiii

I have done shrooms many times... I truly think you turn your thoughts into reality! i was talking to my buddys dad and he reminded me of my self! If you can understand this, i then thought that this was me in a differant life time... after my trip the next day i told my self never agin would i do this drug..... I think you take your thought and twist and pull them to make them into something that is not rreality

Anonymous said...

Ive been ingesting shrooms lately... well only twice lately... But i am no stranger to lsd or shrooms. First time my dog did unexplainable things and then i knew it was god, and i cried in humility for doubting him for a few hours. Second time i did the same shrooms I could handle it and i talked to him or it for awhile. The first time i did it the dark force came afterwards... This second time it was very very very threatening... and i shit you not, the tv was on but on line 1 (where its just black) it goes staticy with some guy brushing his lips on a lifeless black girls body.... slumped up on a chair. And he continues to mock me, and mock god, talking very fast... and refuting my thoughts as they happened instantaneously. I guess it was form of EVP maybe. But i promise you it happened. There is an all loving force, and there is most definately an evil... because they felt as polar opposites. I get better at reaching them each time... i guess as i accept it more.

Anonymous said...

I have taken shrooms many times before but never had these spiritual experiences, however I do occasionally take ecstasy which is also a hallucinogen and the weird thing is I am completely atheist but while on E i feel as though I am being talked to by some other force or being, and this being claims to be part of the afterworld and confirms life after death. I then come down and think I'm crazy( Im not) but it always happens when Im on ecstasy and its not even always the same voice!

Anonymous said...

think you all should read ABRAHAM MASLOW'S BOOK RELIGION : VALUES & THE PEAK EXPERIANCE. It is not really on religion as much is on the human experiance

Anonymous said...

The fact is, none of you know what you are talking about. You think you are all smart and wise for being athiests which is really just your belief system. You deduce everything down to its material parts and say that's all there is. Even when you conduct scientific experiments or use objective facts to prove your point, you are still using your own subjective perception to do all those things. The world only exists within your mind and everything else is open to interpretation. None of you have any clue whether there is an afterlife, a soul, or if it all means nothing. I have tripped many times and had insightful realizations about the world. Just because you guys haven't doesn't mean there is nothing out there. Perhaps your minds are so dull and pathetic that you could never have any useful trips because there is nothing creative in your mind to begin with. And yes, these experiences do take place within our brains, not in the outer world. But that doesn't prove or disprove anything since everything takes place within the mind anyways. All we have is our perceptions. Get it?

Aaron Kinney said...

Anonymous,

Nice argument there. Unfortunately, your entire argument can be levelled against your own religious beliefs almost word for word. Observe:

The fact is, none of you know what you are talking about. You think you are all smart and wise for not being athiest which is really just your belief system. You deduce everything down to its divinely revealed parts and say that's what there is. Even when you conduct prayers or use biblical facts to prove your point, you are still using your own subjective perception to do all those things. The world only exists within your mind and everything else is open to interpretation. None of you have any clue whether there is an afterlife, a soul, or if it all means nothing.

I have tripped many times and had insightful realizations about the world. Just because you guys haven't doesn't mean there is nothing out there. Perhaps your minds are so dull and pathetic that you could never have any useful trips because there is nothing creative in your mind to begin with. And yes, these experiences do take place within our brains, not in the outer world. But that doesn't prove or disprove anything since everything takes place within the mind anyways. All we have is our perceptions. Get it?

Ha! You of all people should understand then that there is nothing to justify any non-material realm of existence. Ive tripped too and Ive certainly felt amazing insightful realizations just like you. The only difference is that I see these things through a perception with less filters and blinders on it, so my perception is less "dull and pathetic" than yours.

Anonymous said...

You're right, there is nothing to justify non-material realms using the tools found in physical reality. But there is also no way to disprove it. Science can only go so far with the current tools we have. Science is also relatively primitive compared to what we will know thousands of years from now. Newton used science and math to show that the universe consisted of solid molecules interacting in a perfect, predictable system. Later, we discovered the existence of subatomic particles that are not fully anchored in physical reality. It showed that newton's laws of physics are limited in its scope. Other more advanced areas of science are dealing with the possibility of alternate dimensions and so forth. If there are non-material realms, we do not have the means to test it right now. At the same time, doesn't the existence of a nonmaterial realm already assume that it is beyond the reach of this world and therefore no tools at our disposal can truly tap in to that? How can one use the sum of it's parts, i.e. a combination of tools or objects, to test and prove the existence of something that is beyond all that? Currently science can only test things that we can deduce. For example, we use objects made out of physical material to observe and test other things out of physical material. How can you use an object made out of physical material to test something non-material? And on top of all that, how are you to know whether your reality is real or not? Because you can conduct a brain scan which shows your brain is operating? What do all those things really prove? At the end of the day the entire world as you know it could be an illusion. Material world and non-material world, they are all constructs within your mind. Whos to say what is real? Reality is just a collective agreement.

Aaron Kinney said...

Anonymous,

You're right, there is nothing to justify non-material realms using the tools found in physical reality. But there is also no way to disprove it.

The disproving of something is only necessary insofar as the addressing the content of the claims that attempt to prove it. Therefore, within that context it can, has been, and continues to be, disproven.

Science can only go so far with the current tools we have.

This is a god of the gaps argument. First off, those science tools go further every day. Secondly, there is nothing to suggest that there is anything that a priori cannot eventually be detected or understood. And thirdly, the scientific tools you speak of have no counterpart; no comparison; no peer. There are no "tools" in the theological or spiritual or immaterial perspectives. All of those things rely on faith, which is not a tool, but a belief in something by virtue of its LACK of tools. The only tools we have -at all- are from the scientific toolbox.

Science is also relatively primitive compared to what we will know thousands of years from now.

This sentence is a double edged sword my friend. I can wield it with equal effectiveness against the spiritual claims that we "knew" thousands of years ago.
For example, the Bible.

Newton used science and math to show that the universe consisted of solid molecules interacting in a perfect, predictable system. Later, we discovered the existence of subatomic particles that are not fully anchored in physical reality. It showed that newton's laws of physics are limited in its scope. Other more advanced areas of science are dealing with the possibility of alternate dimensions and so forth.

Ok great. You just provided lots of examples of scientific tools, and you even went on to support my contention that these scientific tools get better all the time. But where, oh WHERE, are your examples of non-scientific tools that were used to discover something about reality?

If there are non-material realms, we do not have the means to test it right now.

So basically you are admitting that there is currently no way to provide any evidence for an afterlife. You are admitting that an afterlife proposition has no leg to stand on.

At the same time, doesn't the existence of a nonmaterial realm already assume that it is beyond the reach of this world and therefore no tools at our disposal can truly tap in to that?

No.

How can one use the sum of it's parts, i.e. a combination of tools or objects, to test and prove the existence of something that is beyond all that?

But this is begging the question! How can one propose such a dimension in the first place?

Currently science can only test things that we can deduce.

But you are painfully oblivious of the question of "how can we deduce, or even propose, what we cannot test?"

For example, we use objects made out of physical material to observe and test other things out of physical material. How can you use an object made out of physical material to test something non-material? And on top of all that, how are you to know whether your reality is real or not? Because you can conduct a brain scan which shows your brain is operating? What do all those things really prove? At the end of the day the entire world as you know it could be an illusion. Material world and non-material world, they are all constructs within your mind. Whos to say what is real?

A who does not say what is real, but a what. And that what is the realm we live in. What matters is whether or not we listen to what it is telling us. Therefore, the question is, "are you going to listen to the things you imagine in your head or the things you detect with your senses?"

Reality is just a collective agreement.

The hell it is. A popular vote or opinion will not, for example, cause the sun to orbit around the earth.

But, ironically, if you are right, and reality is just a collective agreement, then all I have to do to Kill The Afterlife is to get people to stop believing in it. And so far, this task is succeeding. :P

Anonymous said...

I am not bringing forth any claims that attempt to prove the existence of an afterlife. Therefore, you cannot disprove it either. If you can show me how to disprove it, then I will be wrong. If you cannot, then the argument will continue. If I were trying to prove it, I would use a scientific method to do so because that is the only way one can truly prove anything in the context of our reality. I think science is a great tool but what I was saying is that it simply fails to be advanced enough to test this subject. Those limitations are inherent in our current state of progress. For example, in ancient times we did not have the science in place to prove that the earth was round, yet I’m sure some people believed it was. Just because we couldn’t prove it doesn’t mean it wasn’t round. Similarly today we do not have the means to test the existence of non-physical worlds, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there . You mentioned that there are no non-scientific tools to discover the nature of reality. You also said we should use our senses instead of our imagination. Well perhaps we have a sense that is beyond our traditional 5 senses. Perhaps our brain is a receiver that can switch to a different frequency and become aware of alternate realities. Obviously no one can yet prove this. If I imagine something in my head it certainly does not make it real. But if I sense a different reality, say under the influence of mushrooms, then who or what is to say that my mind is in fact not using another sense and instead imagining the whole damn thing? When I said that reality is a collective agreement, I did not mean the sun orbiting around the earth or anything like that. What I meant is that as culture and collective minds change, so does our awareness of reality. It doesn’t change anything, it simply makes us aware of a bigger picture encompassing what we already know now and a whole lot more. What those extra things could be is beyond our imagination. It could in fact be an awareness of our connection to non-physical worlds beyond this one. Worlds that sustain the one we are in now. I don’t care if you can convince people to stop believing in the afterlife because what I am talking about here is not belief. It is simply a mechanism that may exist beyond this one. You may see it as non-physical nonsense, but perhaps it is just a higher order of mechanics that we cannot understand.

Aaron Kinney said...

Anonymous,

I am not bringing forth any claims that attempt to prove the existence of an afterlife. Therefore, you cannot disprove it either.

If you are not bringing forth claims of an afterlife or other kind of immaterial dimension, then there is nothing for me to disprove in the first place.

And if you arent bringing forth claims, then why are you arguing with me?

If you can show me how to disprove it, then I will be wrong. If you cannot, then the argument will continue.

What argument? An argument involves two opposing views. If you are not presenting some kind of view that opposes mine, then there isnt anything to argue about, is there?

If I were trying to prove it, I would use a scientific method to do so because that is the only way one can truly prove anything in the context of our reality.

Your first message in here was an attempt to use drug induced experiences as an argument for an immaterial dimension. I called you on it. After that you shifted to a "science tools suck" argument. Again I called you on it. Now you have shifted again to where you are trying to agree with my particular points yet somehow continue your argument. You have also gone so far as to masquerade a nonexistant contention as something that needs disproving.

I think science is a great tool but what I was saying is that it simply fails to be advanced enough to test this subject.

Care to submit some other tool as being advanced enough, and while youre at it explain in what ways it would differ from "science" tools in order to successfully test this subject?

I think you are full of shit and I think that science is in principle capable of testing this subject, and it has already come a long way in doing so. The mere fact that we havent yet found all the answers is no reason to throw in the towel and discard science as not being advanced enough yet.

If I imagine something in my head it certainly does not make it real. But if I sense a different reality, say under the influence of mushrooms, then who or what is to say that my mind is in fact not using another sense and instead imagining the whole damn thing?

Nobody. But who are you to say that this different reality is immaterial and undetectable? I contend that the fact that you are using a MATERIAL substance on your MATERIAL body to detect something, necessitates that that thing being detected is MATERIAL in nature.

When I said that reality is a collective agreement, I did not mean the sun orbiting around the earth or anything like that. What I meant is that as culture and collective minds change, so does our awareness of reality.

True. And as our knowledge of reality has improved, the immaterial and spiritual beliefs of society have withered and shrunk, being replaced with far superior, and more satisfying, material knowledge.

You may see it as non-physical nonsense, but perhaps it is just a higher order of mechanics that we cannot understand.

A higher order of mechanics that we cannot understand is not required to be immaterial in nature. Why do you have this obsession with disconnecting your spirit with your body? Are you afraid of the extinguishing of your consciousness upon your bodily death?

I have a nagging feeling that you are trying very hard to legitimize an immaterial reality in order to calm your fears of eventually ceasing to exist as a conscious being.

Anonymous said...

I said that I wasn’t claiming to be able to prove the existence of an afterlife and that you couldn’t disprove it. I thought that point was well understood in society. I’m playing devil’s advocate here, I am debating the possibility it could be true. You lash out at those who believe in non-material worlds yet you hate those who lash out at you for doing the same. That is hypocrisy in case you didn’t notice. You should ask yourself why you are so obsessed with toting off your atheistic view and why you have dedicated such a large part of your life to this cause. Why the fuck should it matter to you if we all fade in to nothingness after we die. Why don’t you go off and have your pleasures? Oh yeah, that’s right, you get off on putting people down. You are not even worthy of having this discussion because if you actually cared about the answer you wouldn’t act like such an arrogant douche. Am I afraid that there is nothing after death? Well I think you are afraid that you might be wrong, hence your huge ego. By the way, you didn’t call me on anything except your own illusions of grandeur. When the hell did I ever say science tools suck? I didn’t. If you could understand anything outside of the little materialistic box you’ve been put in to you would realize that science can only go so far at THIS point in time. YOU are the one that claims to believe in no afterlife and you have no proof of it, so why bother? If you were to see a true reflection of yourself, it would be a right-wing religious nut peddling out ideas for people to believe in. That is the equal and opposite side of what you are. True scientists never take the stance you have because they know that would be dabbling in possibilities and not fact. The fact is, you do not trust your own mind. Instead you use “tools” and material objects to verify your reality. Every ounce of your mood and personality are dependent on outward conditions. You have no ability to regulate your own thoughts and are completely a slave to the world and the views they jam down your throat. Again I never said to throw science in to the garbage. I’m saying that based upon my own experiences, I think the mind is capable of understanding things beyond that of a machine. The difference being that my “proof” is experiential and yours is materialistic. I was originally saying in my first post that experience is all we have and we see everything through the filter of our own mind. Therefore, you cannot truly prove anything beyond the perception of your own mind’s awareness.

I contend that the fact that you are using a MATERIAL substance on your MATERIAL body to detect something, necessitates that that thing being detected is MATERIAL in nature.

So you are agreeing that a physical object cannot detect the non-physical? I contend that science could detect the physical reactions from non-physical worlds. For example, something non-physical influencing our world could perhaps never be detected. But it could detect the physical results of that influence. But again how could one mark the boundary? Maybe there is no boundary. Maybe it is a continual flux of energy until it reaches a level beyond our current ability to detect. Maybe that is what makes everything so illusionary right down to the sub-atomic level. What I meant by a higher order of mechanics is simply a grid of energy that works much like how molecules arrange themselves. It is mechanical in the sense that it has rules of organization, much like this world, except of a higher order.

Aaron Kinney said...

Anonymous,

I said that I wasnt claiming to be able to prove the existence of an afterlife and that you couldnt disprove it.

With all due respect, you most certainly were. But now you are trying to backtrack without admitting error.

I thought that point was well understood in society.

It should be, but until recently you were acting like it wasnt.

Im playing devils advocate here, I am debating the possibility it could be true.

Sure you are, anonymous. But lets assume you are: so why then not announce it and why give me the attitude? And, now that its revealed that you were devils advocate, honestly how well do you think I defended?

And, finally, if you were playing devils advocate, then that means that you didnt believe in the claims you made, so you probably have refutations in mind for these "cant prove, cant disprove" arguments. If you do, would you mind sharing them with me?

You lash out at those who believe in non-material worlds yet you hate those who lash out at you for doing the same. That is hypocrisy in case you didnt notice.

Not true. You are confusing my attacks on a worldview with attacks on actual people. I do not hate theists simply for being theists. I do, however, hate theism and immaterialism.

But you, for example, I dont hate. Not in the slightest. Im enjoying our dialogue in fact.

And finally, I do not hate people that attack my worldview simply because they are attacking me. I enjoy lively debate and often seek it out in various thestic forums. I am a big proponent of -and participator in- the free marketplace of ideas. I believe that one good indicator of the accuract of ones beliefs is their willingness to allow criticism of those beliefs, and the ability to defend them.

You should ask yourself why you are so obsessed with toting off your atheistic view and why you have dedicated such a large part of your life to this cause. Why the fuck should it matter to you if we all fade in to nothingness after we die.

Ive already searched my soul about this specific issue numerous times, and I have reasons to me that are very important. You seem to be eager to judge me when you dont know anything about me! Youre rather presumptuous. For your information, I am a former Christian. When I was a Christian, I used to evangelize. Now that Im an atheist, I am evangelizing atheism. I believe, with good reason, that religion and afterlife belief is harmful to everyone in the world, and I want to make this world a better place. This is, to me, a very positive and life affirming passion.

Why dont you go off and have your pleasures?

I certainly do, my friend. I certainly do. :)

Oh yeah, thats right, you get off on putting people down. You are not even worthy of having this discussion because if you actually cared about the answer you wouldn’t act like such an arrogant douche.

I didnt mean to put anybody down, especially not you. I didnt mean to sound arrogant. Care to englighten show me where I was being insulting and arrogant? I am happy to apologize if I offended you personally.

Am I afraid that there is nothing after death? Well I think you are afraid that you might be wrong, hence your huge ego.

No, I was afraid I was wrong about the afterlife back when I was a Christian. Im not afraid of my temporalness anymore, now that I can face it like a man.

By the way, you didnt call me on anything except your own illusions of grandeur. When the hell did I ever say science tools suck? I didnt.

You said that science tools can only go so far and you claimed that they were inadequate for finding out certain truths about the universe. I disagreed. In all seriousness, where was my "ego" on display? Again, if I insulted you, show me where and I will be happy to apologize and clarify my statement.

If you could understand anything outside of the little materialistic box youve been put in to you would realize that science can only go so far at THIS point in time.

I agree completely. In fact thats exactly what I argued to you before, with the caveat that these tools reach further every day and that nothing, in principle, is beyond their reach.

YOU are the one that claims to believe in no afterlife and you have no proof of it, so why bother? If you were to see a true reflection of yourself, it would be a right-wing religious nut peddling out ideas for people to believe in. That is the equal and opposite side of what you are.

LOL I fully support the freedom for people to express their beliefs and share them with others, even if I disagree with what they believe in particular. Besides, you are the one who came here to peddle your arguments to my on my blog.

True scientists never take the stance you have because they know that would be dabbling in possibilities and not fact. The fact is, you do not trust your own mind.

Not true. Most scientists dont believe in god or the afterlife. And the more distinguished and famous ones disbelieve even MORE than the average scientist.

Instead you use 'tools' and material objects to verify your reality.

Is there another method you care to propose?

Every ounce of your mood and personality are dependent on outward conditions.

Same goes for you, my friend. All of your knowledge is based solely on the material things you have perceived with your material senses. There is no other method for knowledge acquisition or data input.

...Therefore, you cannot truly prove anything beyond the perception of your own minds awareness.

Even if this is true, it is no argument against materialism.

So do you care to share with me your beliefs? You claimed a devils advocate role earlier... so do you actually believe in God and the afterlife? Are you Chrstian? Agnostic? Deist? What is your true worldview? At least with me, there is no ambiguity on where I stand.

Anonymous said...

Hilarious. You dont believe in "god", because it is a man made concept, born within the mind of mankind (supposedly). Science relies on you first accepting certain realities that are 1 or many mens interpretations of natural phenomena, any subsequent scientific fact will be based upon original "facts" or interpretations. Humans arrived at the conclusion of god, the same route the scientist arrived at the conclusion of gravity, through investigation into such phenomena. the idea of reality is certainly insane without the idea of a creator, you seem to take the stance of atheist so as to come across as one who can speak with authority, and intelligence. Just let me ask you, whose idea's or reality, whose intelligence have you adopted in your quest to be mentally superior to such a society of fools that could believe in such a cosmic fairy tale. . . . . God can not be approached merely through the intellect, we are organic beings, just like our surroundings, and consist of more than physical matter and chemical reactions, we are also emotions and subtle energy bodies, but i suppose we will have to wait for ever for science to prove god as it will take forever to map infinity. If you have already chosen spiritual ignorance, then you will never know god. I think you will lose the chance to attain so much wisdom if you have already decided you know so much. If you entertain said mindset 24/7 then you will only have experiences to reinforce said attitude.

Aaron Kinney said...

Re: Anonymous,

Hilarious. You dont believe in "god", because it is a man made concept, born within the mind of mankind (supposedly). Science relies on you first accepting certain realities that are 1 or many mens interpretations of natural phenomena, any subsequent scientific fact will be based upon original "facts" or interpretations.

Science is not "based" on man, but on reality. In science, "man" is merely the messenger of what reality tells us. Their findings are testable and repeatable and rely not on thier opinions or beliefs, but on reality itself. If their findings do not conform with reality, anyone can find out by doing the same tests themselves. That is the beauty of science: its ability to self-correct and continually improve its body of knowledge, irrespective of who initially reported the knowledge.

Humans arrived at the conclusion of god, the same route the scientist arrived at the conclusion of gravity, through investigation into such phenomena.

Baloney! God(s) was an idea that was thought up at an ancient time when we thought that the Earth was flat, that the sun revolved around us, etc...

God beliefs are claimed to be revealed knowledge, not knowledge that is worked for or tested against reality.

the idea of reality is certainly insane without the idea of a creator, you seem to take the stance of atheist so as to come across as one who can speak with authority, and intelligence.

Does your claim "reality is certainly insane without the idea of a creator," also apply to the creator itself? Who created God?

Just let me ask you, whose idea's or reality, whose intelligence have you adopted in your quest to be mentally superior to such a society of fools that could believe in such a cosmic fairy tale. . . . .

My own.

God can not be approached merely through the intellect, we are organic beings, just like our surroundings, and consist of more than physical matter and chemical reactions, we are also emotions and subtle energy bodies,

Since when can emotions not be accounted for in the physical world? Since when are "organic beings" not accountable physically?

but i suppose we will have to wait for ever for science to prove god as it will take forever to map infinity. If you have already chosen spiritual ignorance, then you will never know god.

I lived more than half my life "knowing" God. Eventually I got to know him so well that I knew he was make-believe. Time to give up the imaginary friends, Anonymous.

I think you will lose the chance to attain so much wisdom if you have already decided you know so much. If you entertain said mindset 24/7 then you will only have experiences to reinforce said attitude.

On the contrary, it is the realization that I know so little that helped me abandon my belief in God. Nothing is more "certain" of itself than an alleged truth, divinely revealed, infallible, not open to correction or revision, and not testable by any means.

doug said...

i recognize that i am intruding, but i stumbled across this blog through google and i thought i'd satisfy my own curiosity...

Since when can emotions not be accounted for in the physical world? Since when are "organic beings" not accountable physically?

are you then claiming physical accountability for all of the things you can observe? have you ever felt an attraction to a person without regard for your own pleasure or material gain? do you believe in quantum physics?

Aaron Kinney said...

Re: Doug,

i recognize that i am intruding, but i stumbled across this blog through google and i thought i'd satisfy my own curiosity...

Youre not intruding at all! I welcome all commenters, even if they are *gasp* pro-afterlife ;)

"Since when can emotions not be accounted for in the physical world? Since when are "organic beings" not accountable physically?"

are you then claiming physical accountability for all of the things you can observe?

In principle, yes.

have you ever felt an attraction to a person without regard for your own pleasure or material gain?

I dont think anyone has, at least not in the sense you are implying. The only reason you like people and help them is because they make you feel good. And since an attraction to another person gives you pleasure, anything you do for them is ultimately done for your own please.

do you believe in quantum physics?

Sure. Do YOU believe that quantum physics proves a God and/or an afterlife?

doug said...

in principle, yes.
what about in fact?

i agree entirely with your point about selfish intent in even 'selfless' acts. it was a bad example, anyway.

and no, i do not believe that quantum physics can prove anything concerning a spiritual realm or hierarchy. the point i was trying to make is that two different descriptions of an underlying organization to all of existence don't seem so different to me.

so now science and religion both involve an uncertainty principle. so what? i don't need an explanation.

Anonymous said...

First I need to set the record straight on Mushrooms making you piss yourself. That is entirely untrue. I have been through many trips of medium to heavy doses (5 - 8 grams) and never have I pissed myself and never have I seen someone piss themselves nor ever heard of it happening before to anyone.

To say Magic Mushrooms are 'mystical' is nothing less than an understantment.

For those who have never had a decent mushroom trip, your talking about the contents of a box you have never opened.

If everyone took Mushrooms occasionally, then you may well find there would be a good deal less greed suffering in the world. The same cannot be said for socially acceptable drugs like alcohol that do nothing for the mind other than to numb it and confuse it. Chalk and cheese.

Magic Mushrooms are much more than Mystical, they elevate you above your ego hell into a clear place that it ... God. At times there is also %100 evidence of that experience having a direct effect on the physical world which is enough to move the foundations of any sceptics beleifs, as indeed it has mine.

Aaron Kinney said...

Re: anonymous 9/1/07,

First I need to set the record straight on Mushrooms making you piss yourself. That is entirely untrue. I have been through many trips of medium to heavy doses (5 - 8 grams) and never have I pissed myself and never have I seen someone piss themselves nor ever heard of it happening before to anyone.

Untrue. Just because you never heard of pissing yourself while on shrooms doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I have very reliable testimony from multiple sources of this kind of thing happening. It does not happen often, however, and it is possible to have lots of shroom experiences without getting any pants wetting.

To say Magic Mushrooms are 'mystical' is nothing less than an understantment.

For those who have never had a decent mushroom trip, your talking about the contents of a box you have never opened.

If everyone took Mushrooms occasionally, then you may well find there would be a good deal less greed suffering in the world. The same cannot be said for socially acceptable drugs like alcohol that do nothing for the mind other than to numb it and confuse it. Chalk and cheese.

Magic Mushrooms are much more than Mystical, they elevate you above your ego hell into a clear place that it ... God. At times there is also %100 evidence of that experience having a direct effect on the physical world which is enough to move the foundations of any sceptics beleifs, as indeed it has mine.


Are you saying that you believe in God because of your experiences with shrooms?

Anonymous said...

First time I took mushrooms there was a significantly noticeable affect in how I treated people. I was kinder and much more personable to people. Instead of sitting in my room all day I went and talked to my parents, it was amazing. Second time, I felt that they didn't teach me to do such things like the first time but then I realized that I was treating people much in the same way as after my first trip, I just didn't realize it this time.

You give any person 2.5 grams of shrooms and I guarantee they will learn something significant from them. Sometimes, what you learn hurts. Sometimes it's what you have hidden from all your life and it finally shows its face. As horrible as it may feel I would say there is a great chance it will improve your quality of life.

Anonymous said...

Wow, I absolutely hate people commenting on things that they've never done. ESPECIALLY hallucinogens, weed is one thing because a lot of the things people say can be true for people (including me). Shrooms do NOT make you piss yourself, whoever you heard that from either by coincidence had to take a piss during the trip or is just being stupid. They also do NOT make you find god or be some religious person, instead it makes you find what makes you happy. That is all that matters, that you are happy. If it is God, if it is nature (in my case) or anything else, as long as it makes you HAPPY!

There's so much you don't understand.

Aaron Kinney said...

Re: Anonymous

Wow, I absolutely hate people commenting on things that they've never done. ESPECIALLY hallucinogens, weed is one thing because a lot of the things people say can be true for people (including me). Shrooms do NOT make you piss yourself, whoever you heard that from either by coincidence had to take a piss during the trip or is just being stupid. They also do NOT make you find god or be some religious person, instead it makes you find what makes you happy. That is all that matters, that you are happy. If it is God, if it is nature (in my case) or anything else, as long as it makes you HAPPY!

There's so much you don't understand.


I never said that I have never done shrooms. And I know for a fact that people can piss themselves when they shroom. Ive seen it happen. And in regards to religious experiences, hallucinegens are known to be able to reinforce superstitious beliefs that the tripper already has. It is seen time and time again throughout history, and I saw it happen to this guy at the concert as well.

Anonymous said...

Hello I am just passing through... but as I am here (i have only read a couple of comments) I would like to make a couple of points. Firstly do u really think people would take magic shroomz if they pissed themselves??? well I dont, and I have never known anybody to either.
However the main point I would like to make is this: there is meaning in everything, but how much meaning you get out of things is of course extreamly variant from person to person. Just think if you look at a work of art / painting, everyone has a different perspective on what it means or is saying. You may well read more into it than was intended by the artist. On the other hand, of course, you may well miss some or all of the meaning that was suposed to be convayed. Mushrooms are all about the art of nature, of which we, and are brains are surely part of. That said; what would you think if a colour blind person were to tell you that you create the colours red and green in your brain and that they do not actually exsist (i am by no means saying there r any direct links between colour blindness and shroom trips) but u know red and green exists...dont u? or is it all created in ur mind... by light of different wavelengths passing through ur pupil or eye lens & ur brain sortin them out (but if ur brain cant sort them out, it does not mean they r all the same (wavelengths yes)). So then it is only the presence of light which allows u2 c?? Therefore when there is no light and ur eyes r closed u can see no colours, objests or movement? or maybe u dream... lol... sweet 1s ppl (its 2am and im in need of sum recharging) peace.

Anonymous said...

me again 4 a quick thought: y do some ppl think that the presence of God shd b, and/or is not testable?? I mean God exists on all planes, and most probbaly mainly on the 1s we dont know about. SURE U WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PUT JAH INA TEST TUBE, AND CONDUCT AN EXPERIMENT ->ON UR TERMS<-. But remember people for the main, act on EVIDENCE (wot is everything- well some known more than others) most would not jump out of a plane if they did not believe that the parachute would do its job. Nor would u close ur eyes and fall bacwards if u didnt trust ur friend to catch u.

Here take this, go catch God and put him in a jar. What will happen wen u heat God for ten mins with a bunson burner... Conclusion

1 Thing which can b tested is faith. Isnt that the whole point.

We all have the power to be positive or negative. If we were all positive all the time this wd b good. If we were all negative all the time this wd b bad.

I will try to briefly explain... i hope this helps: If we stand in the forest we c all the beauty of nature and can hear, smell, touch, and taste the wonders of the world. If something then knocks us out and we awake locked in a small white room. we can think about our familys and the things we saw in the forest and although we may be far away from both they are still with us, in our minds as something we wish to return to. Our minds can expand far beyond the 4 walls we find ourselves within.

REMEMBER:- EVERYTHING COMES FROM SOMETHING. THEREFORE THERE WAS NEVER, AND CAN NEVER BE NOTHING, & WHEN YOU TAKE INFINATY INTO ACCOUNT... RATHER THAN LIMITING THE AMOUNT OF STUFF THAT EXISTS, WHY NOT EXPAND... ANYWAY WATER IS CLEAR. Goodnight

Anonymous said...

"the afterlife does not exixst", "tomorrow never comes". hahahahahaaa. except its 3:17am... so it is tomorrow?? No! its now Sunday and tomorrow is Monday. ok well the afterlife is an impossibility? --- its just (the) Life. Round and round we go. 1. C.

Anonymous said...

Hey. Have had some sleep, and decided 2 flood ur page with sum mor rambalings, as i have been reading a few more comments. This time what u were saying about pleasure... I think you need to re-evaluate ur beliefe, as altough generaly speaking people only "give" if they want something in return. This is by no means always the case. Although it is very rare, I know that some of us will actually make huge sacrifices in oreder to help others.
The issue here, I believe is about "strength of soul", a concept which may b slightly alien 2u?? Think about it. If u had just bought a "foot long sub of the day" from u know where, as u were very hungery. Then a young girl (very scruffy, and all skin and bones) wallked past u loookin faint, and then colasped in front of u. U (i hope) would come to her aid. If u asked her what was the matter and she said she had not eaten anything for 3 days, I would think u might give ur sandwich to her (even if u had no means to purchase a second). So do u do this in order to bring urself pleasure? Well no, u do it because we all have humanity. I could go on, but to b honest I have written loads and I cant really be bothered (i hear u breathe a sigh of relief) -(as it takes so long to convaye my thoughts in this limited (single) stream of text) + I imagine what I say is unlikely to (instantly) sway u (but its in there now- like a seed (1 wd hope)) Im sure u can work things out by yourself.

AND the only reason i have spent hours writting this is... because it brings me plesure to impose my views on other people... yeah right.

Ever had homemade rubarb apple, and mango crumble with cream/ice cream? Mmmm, its very nice!

Positive Mental Attitude People.

(and y do non believers bang on about freedom, like people with faith are trapped in sum sorta delusion? well all I can say is if God exsisted as the "deep boomig 'human' voice u seem to require (as 'evidence)" and said to u kneel b4 me and worship me, would u turn to ur friend and say "did u heare that? If he said yes, would u then do it?
How would that be for freedom??? FREEDOM IS ALL ABOUT ->>> CHOICE <<<- (isnt it) and u can choose how u wish to look at life, and what u want to find in yours.

Humanity + Reality = ?

(I hope I have at least given u something to think about...it is key)

God bless all my true SoulJahs. 1 (love, in case u didnt know)

Anonymous said...

Ok this is the last 1 i promise, untill at least sum1 else has had a go, and this will b short as well as, I think u will find, sweet:

U talk about 'said' beauty of science....

<> Peace <>

Aaron Kinney said...

Re: Anon 09-22-07 @ 6:05 pm,

Anonymous said...
Hello I am just passing through... but as I am here (i have only read a couple of comments) I would like to make a couple of points. Firstly do u really think people would take magic shroomz if they pissed themselves??? well I dont, and I have never known anybody to either.


In a word, yes. Pissing oneself is still very rare when on mushrooms but Ive seen it happen multiple times.

Re: Anon 9-22-07 @ 7_07 pm,

me again 4 a quick thought: y do some ppl think that the presence of God shd b, and/or is not testable??

I dont know. I, for one, believe that assertions such as "there is a God" are indeed testable. Furthermore, I believe that they have been disproven.

REMEMBER:- EVERYTHING COMES FROM SOMETHING.

Including God?

THEREFORE THERE WAS NEVER, AND CAN NEVER BE NOTHING, & WHEN YOU TAKE INFINATY INTO ACCOUNT... RATHER THAN LIMITING THE AMOUNT OF STUFF THAT EXISTS, WHY NOT EXPAND... ANYWAY WATER IS CLEAR. Goodnight

I agree. And so does physics. Dont forget the first law of thermodynamics, aka the law of conservation of matter/enrgy: "Matter/energy can never be destroyed; it can only change forms." According to science, there never was "nothing," but there was always matter and enegry. According to physics, time is temporal, but the universe isnt. So much for God. Take it easy :)

Re: Anon 09-22-07 @ 7:22 pm,

Is this the same Anon as the previous two? Dont be afraid to just type in a handle of some sort. It makes it easier to know which commenters are newcomers and which are the ones Ive been talking with already. Too many anons is too confusing.

"the afterlife does not exixst", "tomorrow never comes". hahahahahaaa. except its 3:17am... so it is tomorrow?? No! its now Sunday and tomorrow is Monday. ok well the afterlife is an impossibility? --- its just (the) Life. Round and round we go. 1. C.

Dude, I never said that tomorrow never comes. Sure tomorrow will come! But the afterlife? Think about that term for a second: "After - life." Its a contradiction! Life after death? Death is the termination of life! The term "afterlife" is analogous to the term "married bachelor." Its internally contradictory.

Re: Anon 9-23-07 @ 6:44 am,

Hey. Have had some sleep, and decided 2 flood ur page with sum mor rambalings, as i have been reading a few more comments. This time what u were saying about pleasure... I think you need to re-evaluate ur beliefe, as altough generaly speaking people only "give" if they want something in return. This is by no means always the case.

Actually, it is always the case. Give me any example you can think of of someone willingly "giving" and Ill tell you what they receive in return.

Although it is very rare, I know that some of us will actually make huge sacrifices in oreder to help others.

Yes, because it gives us pleasure to help others. Thats what you get in return: happy feelings.

The issue here, I believe is about "strength of soul", a concept which may b slightly alien 2u?? Think about it.

Nah, its not alien to me. For most of my life I was a Christian. Ive only been an atheist for about 10 years now.

If u had just bought a "foot long sub of the day" from u know where, as u were very hungery. Then a young girl (very scruffy, and all skin and bones) wallked past u loookin faint, and then colasped in front of u. U (i hope) would come to her aid. If u asked her what was the matter and she said she had not eaten anything for 3 days, I would think u might give ur sandwich to her (even if u had no means to purchase a second). So do u do this in order to bring urself pleasure? Well no, u do it because we all have humanity.

Yes, we have humanity. But still, that humanity gives us pleasure when we cater to it, and it would make me feel good to give the food that I paid for to a starving girl in need. So fulfilling my humanity sentiments DOES make me feel good.

Heres the flipside: would you still give her the sandwich if she tried to kill you?

AND the only reason i have spent hours writting this is... because it brings me plesure to impose my views on other people... yeah right.

Yes, it brings you pleasure. The only reason I write this blog and try to convince people of what I believe is the truth is because it makes me feel good.

Ever had homemade rubarb apple, and mango crumble with cream/ice cream? Mmmm, its very nice!

Um, no. But ive had lots of other kinds of pies. Im particularly fond of blueberry and peach pie :D

Positive Mental Attitude People.

(and y do non believers bang on about freedom, like people with faith are trapped in sum sorta delusion? well all I can say is if God exsisted as the "deep boomig 'human' voice u seem to require (as 'evidence)" and said to u kneel b4 me and worship me, would u turn to ur friend and say "did u heare that? If he said yes, would u then do it?


If God was real, then what choice would I have but to obey? When a master has you in chains from which you cannot escape, and he commands your worship under threat of eternal punishment, what would YOU do?

Re: Anon 09-23-07 @ 5:16pm,

U talk about 'said' beauty of science....

Yes, definitely. Have you ever looked at material things and seen untold beauty? Like perhaps an image from the Hubble telescope, or the double helix of DNA? There are countless examples to point to. But what about the beauty of a personal creator God? I dont think that God can compare to the beauty of the natural world.

Heres a challenge: Can you cite an example of God-based beauty that compares to the natural beauty of a Hubble image of the Crab nebula?

C said...

Ok my name is Chris and i have left the past 5 (approx) msgs. and, my friend i would like to answer ur question or should i say rise to ur challenge (not that im to sure about that word "cite", i take it it means 'give')> the Hubble image of the Crab Nebula. That is my answer(remember 'water is clear' and yet u can also see ur reflection in its surface). Now it is a shame you dont look at religion with such an analytical eye. Firstly: Where does this idea that God and Nature are somehow seperate things come from. As i believe the only way to get 'close' to God is to get 'close' to Nature. Ok point No. 2. If u look at religion around the world you will find that, if you take all the fabrications and stories as FACT then you cannot really 100% believe more than 1 or 2 or possibly a few more. However if one is to look at it scientificaly one MUST put (at least) 2 variables into the equation, and both are to do with human behavour (of which most of us SHOULD understand). 1stly: The use of stories to communicate meaning and teachings (about reality). These stories can be purely factual or purely fictional, but mostly will be a mixture of diffenent sources (ie fictional based on facts). Which brings me nicely to... 2ndly: people have a natural ability to dramatise and exadurate events. So as an event/story is comunicated from one person to the next the facts will be blured and indeed can become completely lost.
(the only difference between these 2 points is that 1 is done meaningfully and 2 is not)

Now I move onto a 3rd point which is also very important. Where ever there is good there will often be bad or maybe even evil which will try to use the good in a negative way. (maybe the story of Adam and Eve symbolises this fact)

I think you r inteigent enough to get where im goin with this, or maybe not??

My beliefe in God is not anything like being a slave to a Human being!

Back to the natural world quickly. The after life is as u say a contradiction in terms. well we dont call steam "the after hot water" nor ice "cooled (to 0 degrees or below) water" however if I did, im sure some ppl wd understand me.

Variety.... People, Animals, Weather systems, Music, Feelings... Apparently no 2 snowfakes r ever the same. as like DNA the 'building' blocks of nature ar surley a marvel.

God is the pure essence of good. And it is hard or near impossible for us humans do elaborate on the fact successfuly without complicating things.

If you are truely good then you are close to God weather u know it or not.

All i can say to u bro is that u cant have really known God.

The problem with "RELIGION" is that is has such vast and varied meanings, as a concept and as a word. Ie for the individualy it can mean the very foundation of ones and indeed all life. However in broader terms it can be the cause of most of the suffering and war throught history.

God is the PURE ESSENCE OF GOODNESS. I say it again as in order to elevate ur thinking, u must go by ur own personal FEELINGS, with this at the forefront. Take knowlege where and when it feels right.

I am sadened to hear u exclaim that u have "shown" that belief in Jah and the after (or other stages of) Life make u insane.

And I write this (at slight detriment 2 myself as i need 2 sleep) not so much that it brings me plesure, but more that I feel i can help improve... (the tone of this page, lol) na, help improve other ppls way of thinking, and i spose essentualy lives in general.

Remember the crumble! (and if u kook it urself u will also get a great sense of achivement. Bless

C said...

oh and quickly... what came first the chicken or the egg. Well no one can say with any certanty can they? however this does not disprove the fact that Chickens and Eggs exixst. And i call that baby science. Do u think if u or I prey to God to tell us where 'he' comes from he will answer?... (please dont answer that, im too tired to continue) blah blah blah. One.

Aaron Kinney said...

Re: C,

the Hubble image of the Crab Nebula. That is my answer(remember 'water is clear' and yet u can also see ur reflection in its surface). Now it is a shame you dont look at religion with such an analytical eye. Firstly: Where does this idea that God and Nature are somehow seperate things come from. As i believe the only way to get 'close' to God is to get 'close' to Nature.

If nature was made by God, then isnt it actually a supernatural thing that is dependent upon Gods will for existence? And if you are trying to get close to an eternal god via temporal nature, I must say you are barking up the wrong tree.

Ok point No. 2. If u look at religion around the world you will find that, if you take all the fabrications and stories as FACT then you cannot really 100% believe more than 1 or 2 or possibly a few more. However if one is to look at it scientificaly one MUST put (at least) 2 variables into the equation, and both are to do with human behavour (of which most of us SHOULD understand). 1stly: The use of stories to communicate meaning and teachings (about reality). These stories can be purely factual or purely fictional, but mostly will be a mixture of diffenent sources (ie fictional based on facts). Which brings me nicely to... 2ndly: people have a natural ability to dramatise and exadurate events. So as an event/story is comunicated from one person to the next the facts will be blured and indeed can become completely lost.
(the only difference between these 2 points is that 1 is done meaningfully and 2 is not)


The way I see it, when you look at all the world religions, you can only conclude that they are all equally bullshit. Anthropologists who study world cultures invariable come to this conclusion as well. The only thing that transcends culture is science, because its a universal language. And while cultures believe in thunder gods and virgin births and the like, science believes in cold hard facts that do not rely on cultural influences or tradition or allegedly divine dictate as a substitute for evidence.

Now I move onto a 3rd point which is also very important. Where ever there is good there will often be bad or maybe even evil which will try to use the good in a negative way. (maybe the story of Adam and Eve symbolises this fact)

I think you r inteigent enough to get where im goin with this, or maybe not??

My beliefe in God is not anything like being a slave to a Human being!


Neither is mine. My idea of God is like HIM being the master, and HUMANS being the slaves. Not him being a slave to a human being!

Back to the natural world quickly. The after life is as u say a contradiction in terms. well we dont call steam "the after hot water" nor ice "cooled (to 0 degrees or below) water" however if I did, im sure some ppl wd understand me.

Variety.... People, Animals, Weather systems, Music, Feelings... Apparently no 2 snowfakes r ever the same. as like DNA the 'building' blocks of nature ar surley a marvel.


And those natural facts are more impressive than some all powerful eternal being that made nothing but temporal, flawed creatures.

God is the pure essence of good. And it is hard or near impossible for us humans do elaborate on the fact successfuly without complicating things.

If God is the essence of good, then where does evil come from? Did someone other than God create evil? What else was created independently of a grand omnipotent creator?

If you are truely good then you are close to God weather u know it or not.

All i can say to u bro is that u cant have really known God.


Already you are resorting to attacking me and calling me a liar. Its an indication that your argument is failing.

The problem with "RELIGION" is that is has such vast and varied meanings, as a concept and as a word. Ie for the individualy it can mean the very foundation of ones and indeed all life. However in broader terms it can be the cause of most of the suffering and war throught history.

God is the PURE ESSENCE OF GOODNESS. I say it again as in order to elevate ur thinking, u must go by ur own personal FEELINGS, with this at the forefront. Take knowlege where and when it feels right.


Again, where does the evil come from? Who created it? And can something such as evil be created without the consent of the grand creator?

Anonymous said...

dylan

i read this whole damn page and the omly knowledge ive optained from it is just how doomed mankind really is how much people feed off competition with one another in hope that you,me,we will die victorious wiser,healthier, or a better friend with god than our neighboor the whole fucking point to the world is life obviously so what if it takes god or science to help you understand yourself at least your happy with the fucking picture right and if your not..... then fucking pray as for the mushrooms there a godamn miracle lol

Anonymous said...

and i know you all will feed on this fucking blog to make you feel better about yourselves so eat it up.and go ahead and walk through life thinking that since there is no such thing as god the world is going to get better yes i agree with aaron without the word of religion the world might have been easier to live and die in but i take pride in overcoming just like you i bleed just like you and i die just like you i choose to believe in god not because of an after life but billions of people have died in his name and i not comfortable dying believing that it was all for nothing and yes comfortable a double edged sword piss off smart ass

sincerely,
dylan
p.s I do love you though and i would give her the sub even though she tried to kill me she just must not understand the value of life and thats okay cause i would forgive her

Anonymous said...

My first question to you is, What would you know about the upper and lower limits are placed on another's experience? How can you be the judge as to the potential revelation that one may experience? You are not them, as your are not objective, but subjective. You are relative and can only think in terms of relativity.

There's something unsettling about a human being devoid of creative and mystic thought. Akin to a sterile lifeless and uncreative robot.

And your comments on pissing, well who knows what point you are trying to make... But it seems that you are trying to associate something that may be deemed as undesirable or silly ( ie 'pissing' ) with something of spiritual experience. Attempting to ridicule the potential with the ridiculous. No, sir. No one's buying this 'attempt' at ridicule.... and I say attempt because that's all it is. You are not breaking down any walls of theology here. But feel free to kick and scream against a God you most probably hate and blame for the trapped nature of your spirit in flesh.

Might I offer the possibility that your mind is closed to the potential and therefore will not see it.

Zero-Equals-Infinity said...

There is no substitute for experience. What I will call Primary Religious Experience (PRE) is able to be powerfully realised on shrooms. Does this prove that God exists? Absolutely not. What it does show is that a particular subset of ecstatic states can be induced by mushrooms that are ineffable, boundless, and produce a sense of the presence of God. I have experienced such states, and they are extremely potent. Unless and until you perform the experiment yourself, it will be impossible to form a valid impression. For me, shrooms opened a gateway into places that were only hinted at without them. Again, this dose not prove God, but it sure leaves an indelible impression of extreme beauty and power.

C said...

C: temporal nature? C?>

woof woof?

-no1 knows all the "Facts"

what is a fact? a rule?

where do rules come from?

if u invent the game then u make the rules

where do games come from?

y do we play games?

what would life be like without games?

Try 2 get ur facts right coz this game aint always a fun & games.

"He knows everything, hes watching everything"

u can reject "him" for ur whole life, but if u need him just:
open ur mind
open ur eyes
open ur heart
open ur arms
open ur mouth
open up 2 reality... dog

Peace

-ok Mr dylan, Im not sure if u understand the dynamics of this dicussion (ie who said wot) but i hope u were not telling me to "piss off (smart arse)" as it would seem we think rather along the same lines?

Mr guy who "made" this blog, I was not attacking u... merely pointing out my opinion which is that if u really knew God/love then u would not turn against the ideas and feelings involved in the "concept". & 2u both I do not c this so much as a competition, as much as an oppertunity to address the balance, in the hope that antbody who reads this will b presented with some more stuff to think about, in the hope that i may touch others with positivity. simple

Finaly I am pleased to hear other ppls views as I believe that by taking a look at others ppls a perspecives we can get a more complete picture. - "Jack of all trades".- ppl have different skills, some good at maths, some art, some science, some cooking, some sports, some religion etc. oh and about the slave thing, well if u have a slave (which was a person "created" by u) and u grant them freedom, well thats very nice of u and also r they a slave if u have set them free?? a bizare concept i know, but then again we are bizare creatures living in a bizare world, but in saying that it is f***ing amazing!!

beautiful, & i am very greatful
(eternally greatful)

bless

Anonymous said...

I just read most of the beginning of the blog. Its pretty surprising to see how some people are describing "spiritual" or "supernatural realms," as in the brain? IN the brain? Just IN it. oh, ok. well described... The mind is a barrier that exists between our bodies/brains and infinity. It is composed of filters, that when "become aware of," may be altered/thrown away because of ill necessity. Now, hopefully, most of you can comprehend this. If you can, then you are it. Growth potential. Evolution. If you can tell me one line that can hold up to this, please do.

foundhim said...

i feel as if i found something that understands me.

i recently had a shroom trip months ago, but this trip was the most intense, because all of my questions of another existence, and an afterlife was all answered to me.

God talked to me,without words, just a feeling and told me that he puts messages on earth for us to discover, such as cancer patients is looked as diseased humans on the verge of dying, but in reality, its gods truth and messages that he shows these patients that live in both the earth world and the spirit realm, they see things we cannot. and are too afraid to tell others, but in some cases patients tell close people they care about of unexplainable nature.

Same goes for weed and shrooms, gods messages within our natural world we need to find, he will show you the truth.

I now know the meaning to life, and no amount of words and logic can never explain this. its an out of body experience, and i cried for days because i knew of the truth, and the epiphany of what humanity has seeked eternity to find was staring me in the face.

After the trip, i see signs that are sent to me, that puzzle my whole life together.

A way i could kind of describe a fraction of our existence is the movie The Fountain. The director understands the outer layer of this realm. and it is not encoded in the bible or any scripture.

we need to find him ourself.

but trust me, im not crazy, nor stupid. im in college, and am one of the most intelligent people you would come across.

But i feel like i saw something humanity needs to know of.

Someone get back at me if you get me.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Tripping is proof enough of a supreme being. A lot Atheists are just as bad as Christians always trying to shove your opinions down peoples throats! Look at how similar the catholic church controlled Europe was to atheist/communist countries of the 20th and 21st century's. You don't think like we do than you die!

FRATA EXTERMINO ETERNO!

The Lay-Back Trader said...

@ FoundHim

I GET YOU!!!

I was an atheist forever. I used to constantly argue with believers my point of view. How a supreme being is a flawed view to hold, a paradox, and ridiculous, in light of what science has shown us.

Then I tripped multiple times during a summer.
I was changed forever!!
My atheist view was shattered by my experience.

And as humans, all we really have to judge the world and form views, are our experiences.

I can no longer adhere to atheism after what I experienced.
Its just that simple.
The mushrooms showed me how everything fits together.

In the bible it states....

"You are the revealer, You are the humiliator of stubborn deeds. You are the one who shows the hidden parts. You are the plant of kindness"
Acts of Thomas

I dont believe in some creator with a beard, in the sky, who will judge me when I die.
And I dont necessarily believe there is an afterlife.

But I do believe we are part of a supreme being of sorts.
Like tendrils of a fractal.

The Mandelbrot fractal is how I can best describe God. IT is all, and we are the tendrils. We can feel the complete fractal, by taking shrooms, praying or meditating.

So I know EXACTLY what youre talking about!

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Anonymous said...

You obviously have not had the experience.

tasfoolia said...

My view on the world before mushrooms had nothing to do with GOD or mystics, however, there was no doubt about this oneness feeling I had on mushrooms. It was horrible because I was all that there was. It was GOD ( us ) wanting there to be something else, so GOD created all the little selves and lived through us all. THe issue was - it could only be one awareness at a time, which makes all the other ppl SHADOWS of their former lives. THAT IS WHY YOU ARE GOD AND I AM NOT REAL. get over it = all is ONE

Anonymous said...

With nothing being proved in either direction, as to the existence of anything but our own illsions; I can then boldly say, "Magic mushrooms are in fact ...God!

Anonymous said...

Just wanted to say im happy that i found this page and found so many people who is thinking same way as i am.

There are no such thing as bearded old man in the sky, but there are someone greater then we are, someone who contacts you when you are open-minded and guide you.

And on earth there is an good and evil.

Anonymous said...

Can you proove to me whilst standing still on the spot your love for someone? Pretty difficult and yet I won't doubt you. Why ? Because there are plenty reference points that share that exact same feeling and experience of being in love. Unfortunately Not so regarding authentic "finding god" through magic mushrooms it's pretty unusual. Curiously The native American Indians did not give this state of enlightenment a name to do so would shatter it's sacredness which conveys the profoundness. To sum it up with a word is unthinkable and perhaps silence says it all!
Is it any wonder the other name for magic mushrooms is sacred mushrooms and gods flesh? Perhaps its not a question of finding god as god is already and has always been there and always will be and part of us. Consider that only when the souls condition is ripe will experience this knowing in good"time" even if it's a future life in a different physical body if not at death. So yes there's afterlife . And To say that someone has lost their mind is a compliment that's the aim of yogis on mountain tops practising diligently to achieve the same state and experience" Reality" that mushrooms also can but not in everybody and not always to a fruitfull happy conclusion or ending. Thank heavens for blueberry pie in the meantime untill your own direct experience which if you asked to proove my own standing still on the spot would be a difficult one. To doubt is understandable as the reference points are fewer regarding this than there are those who have found human love on the mother earth and ground.
She's pretty awsome too and counterpart to god!

thank you for the space to Share and chat ! Love to all and everyone past future and present.

Anonymous said...

Dear person who wrote this article,

I just wasted 5 minutes of my life I will never get back, So now I want to waste 5 minutes of your own life just by telling you to FucK Off, and go get fucked in your asshole like you already do........

Anonymous said...

I found "God" during my first and only trip. I used to be an atheist before coming across philosophy so you could say I was already on the path to "awakening" or "de-conditioning". I made sure to seclude myself and take a hit of Mary Jane when the stomach pains started. After that, I was swift off on a journey into my subconscious where I met with "God" and was told all that exists is love and not to worry because everything happens for a reason. Then it felt as if a portal had opened in my mind which flooding my brain with all of the knowledge of the universe at light speed. Be very careful, is all I have to say.

Anonymous said...

you said "just because you haven`t seen someone piss themselves on shrooms doesnt mean its not true." well eat you own fucking words. just cause you havent found god. doesnt mean that he is not real. go fuck you arrogant. ignant nieve. hypocryteical cunt.

Trinity Three Hawks said...

I dilberatly went to see God. I went to a plce where no one would bother me and bring me back to the mundane and wicked world of man. In the stillness of the creation, there was no me, no I; just celebration; a celebration far beyond words. Yes, this is still EDEN, yet however, we live seperated from our true existence, wearing our masqurades.
The mushroom is a gift from the Beloved to know the Beloved is in you and surrounds you. You can not be the same afterwards; you know to much to ignor the truth. However, those who use it without accepting the all encompassing companionship of the Creator are the ones who, having not known or seen this Eden, came to this mushroom journey only for a joy ride and not to know the one who is love. Therefore I see the folly of man's arrogance written here in this blog, which denies that God IS.

Anonymous said...

I did shrooms jst a day ago and had a bad trip... it was awful bt I talked to God and he made me realize alotta shit... it does all happen inside ur brain! There's a reason why us humans are only aloud to use so much of our brains... and shrooms put me in a state of mind I've never encountered b4! Its almost like I had a sixth sense and cud feel everyone around me not jst feel their presence bt feel their happiness or pain! I cudnt control my mind and I started freaking out or tripping alot worse! I thought I wud be stuck in tht state of mind foreva! I eventually thought I wud go to sleep and never wake up again... bt I knw God talked to me and jst took me to breathe bc by this time I wasn't able to control my body and i felt like I was almsot havin a seizure.. my friend who had also tooken tha shrooms held me down and told me to jst breathe... i honestly felt like i was goin to die... i talked about 'y not jst dieing?'after I finally calmed down me and my friend had sumwat control over each others minds like we cud communicate through one anothers... it was tha most bazaar shit ever and its changed my life! I won't ever do shrooms again and I was in a part of my mind I don't need to be in bt God did show me who he was and y I'm here!!!

Anonymous said...

I feel like I had a trip sumwat like urs so I get u! Glad I cud relate to sumone

Anonymous said...

Be responsible and you too will find peace within. I never believed it as a teen, I just thought it was a good time, to see funny colors. As an adult, I see it for face value and the face has a third eye into the universe. This is not strange "Hippie talk." These drugs are illegal for a reason;they make you question EVERYTHING THAT CONTROLS YOUR HAPPINESS!!!

Anonymous said...

Two out of the five times I've taken shrooms, I've had no such mystical experiences. The other three however....that's a different story. It's like imagining colors that you don't know. You can't, can you? In the same way, you cannot understand a truly mystical experience unless you've had one. And even with that, I tend to forget the ancient truths that I learn within a day of tripping. But I met my soul on a shrooms, and I left my body. Nobody can tell me that didn't happen and it was just the shrooms, for it was an experience unparalleled to any other. However, I did talk to a cat on shrooms, an experience that was probably just the shrooms talking. You can take what you want from these experiences, but I was an atheist before them, and now I am a spiritual seeker of truth. Shrooms did change my life. Maybe I did let them when I didn't have to, but I'm all the better for it now, so why would you try to convince people what they experience is false? Anything I have learned has only served to enrich the life I'm living. Just sharing my thoughts. Cheers and namaste, friends.